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  1. #1

    Mute, solo & send FX in the SSL mixer with output busses - help!

    Okay, here's the deal - I hope I can explain this clearly!

    The short version of my question is: What happens to the FX send routing in a main mixer channel when that channel is part of an outbus bus that is soloed? Here's what I mean - please let me know if I can clarify!

    I use Reason 7 with an Axiom 49 and a Roland FCB 1010 pedal board (among other things) for live performance. I have a song set up with all the "Verse" and "Chorus" parts (beats, synths, keys, etc.) routed to two output bus channels (verse and chorus) with pedals assigned to the mute buttons on each bus, so I can switch between the parts with two quick foot taps on neighboring buttons - mute the verse, unmute the chorus. It works great, but one tap would be better than two, so I tried the following:

    I left the verse bus unmuted, and muted the chorus bus channel, then set my foot pedal to toggle the Solo button for that same chorus channel. That way, when I tap the pedal, the chorus turns "on" because the solo overrides the mute, and the verse was muted at the same time. The same thing works in reverse so I can easily jump back and forth between A and B parts in a song. It seemed all good, except...

    When I solo the chorus bus channel, all of the send FX on the individual channels routed to that bus don't work!

    For the chorus of the song, I have a few layered beats, a synth bass, and a Rhodes chord progression that are all routed to the chorus output bus. I also have send FX set up in the main mixer and I use other foot switches on the FCB to toggle the sends of different channels to the FX in the main mixer, which is great for sending a snare hit or hi hat lift out to the delay with a foot tap, I but when I solo the output bus for the chorus, the FX sends get cut out of the mix.

    I don't want to add FX directly to the devices, because the effect - especially delay - gets cut off when the channel is muted. I want to mute a delayed drum track and have the delay continue until it decays, for example. I also don't want to put FX on the bus channels, since I don't want to add FX to every track on the bus. Why would the FX on my Kong get cut out when I solo the output bus that the Kong is routed to? The Kong still comes through, but the FX are gone.

    What am I missing? Huge thanks in advance to the forum if anyone can help me out!

    Jacob

    soundcloud.com/thugtapus

  2. #2
    Administrator Matt's Avatar
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    Could you put all this in a more simple short way. What is it you want to do?

  3. #3
    Sorry that was confusing - you never know what information might be useful or not. I'll try again:

    I have a bunch of channels routed to an output bus. When I solo the output bus, I lose the FX sends (or maybe the FX returns?) on those channels. I can still hear the dry audio from each channel on the output bus, but not the FX.

    There's something I'm missing or not understanding about what happens to the FX routing in a channel when the output bus is soloed.

    I want to be able to solo the output bus without losing the FX sends.

    Thanks for any insight or ideas you can share!

    Jacob

  4. #4
    Reason Master Osmose's Avatar
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    First off all, what you mean by a "output bus" is actually a "sub" bus?

    The signal goes trough the fx section after the fader from any channel, unless routed different;
    There is a button wich will allow you to have different routing configurations.

    So, when you solo "a" channel, no signal goes to the fx channels.

    When you bus a couple of tracks bussed in to a "sub bus" and have fx sends on every individual track, then when you mute that particular sub bus, you should still be able to hear the fx, but not the dry audio.


    Fx channels are in fact seperate in and output channels coming from the mixer/ "console". So the return of the fx's isn't being controlled by a simple audio channel.


    The only thing i can think of you're doing wrong; there is a difference between the "send effects" and "insert effects". It think your using the latter wich is serial processing before the fader, send effects are parallel.
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  5. #5
    Osmose,

    Thanks so much for the reply!

    In Reason, when I select a number of tracks to add to a bus, I am using the "route to new output bus" option. Is there an alternate way to create a sub bus that would work differently?

    You say that "The signal goes trough the fx section after the fader from any channel, unless routed different." Can you suggest a routing option that would preserve the FX signal when the bus is soloed? I tried toggling the "pre/post" button for each effect, but that didn't solve the problem.

    Thank you so much taking the time to try and help me with this - I really appreciate it!

    I checked out some of your tracks, too - nice work! I especially liked some of the mixing work, lots of separation, layers all really clear and distinct, but meshed and coherent. Is this all done exclusively in Reason, or are you using other tools for mixing and mastering?

  6. #6
    Reason Master Osmose's Avatar
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    So did i quick fiddle in Reason (havent been in Reason for weeks cause i just moved..), and i was wrong in some thing i mentioned..
    My bad.. haha


    Either way; a send receives it signal from a channel (duh...), that signal gets "send" to the effect and gets send back (return) to the master channel. The amount of send adjusts the volume of the ingoing signal, the return adjust the outgoing signal coming from the effect.
    So when having multiple channels send to a effect, the "send" knob regulates the balance between all ingoing signals. Just like the faders do in a mixer.
    The return adjust the outout volume, thus keeping the balance of the ingoing signals, just like the master fader in a mixer.

    "Pre" or "Post" fader has to do with when the signal is getting send, before or after the fader.
    Lets say the input volume of the incoming signal into the mixer channel is -4dB (gain -/ gain staging; top bit of the mixer channel).
    When set to "pre" fader, the signal going in to the FX using the send knob is -4dB x amount of send (lets say 50%) so the signal going in to the fx will be half the volume (dunno how much in dB, but hey..)
    When you do touch the fader, the volume of the signal going in to the fx wont change.

    In effect, you might notice that when you lower the fader, the signal actually starts to sound more "wet".


    When set to post fader, the fader's setting will change the signal's volume going in to the fx as well. So it'll keep the dry/wet balance.


    Thus, after explaining all this, you can see why the soloe and mute buttons shouldnt effect the volume of the send's/ FX. Muting a So an delay or reverb with a long tail should still be audible dying out after muting.



    Short note on this: Send effects are parallel, insert effects are serial (before the fader)


    So this leaves me questioning: are you sure, your "Chorus" bus doesnt have INSERT fx apllied in stead of SEND??


    Below a link to a quick example in Reason, showing the difference in INSERT and SEND, and showing that the "toggling" of a mute and solo in one action should work.

    LINK: https://www.sendspace.com/file/c02p4a


    Hope it helps



    Regarding my tracks: Thanks man, appreciate the props! And ye, all is done in Reason, including Mastering. The mastering was pretty much done with stock devices except for the Kuassa eq's by the way
    Last edited by Osmose; 12-12-2015 at 04:12 PM.
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  7. #7
    Look for the following section in the operations manual....

    Solo, Mute and Send FX logic

    on mine it's page 407

  8. #8

    Angry

    Yeah I noticed that too.
    I route the "Samples" channel through the "MICS" bus,
    then I enable "send 1" on the "Samples" channel,
    then the problem is when I mute the "MICS" bus channel it will mute the "send 1" output on the "Samples" channel.
    Mixers don't ever operate like that so what's up with that..?
    http://jvond.com/images/2016-12-28_00-12-04_Reason.png

    16-12-28_00-09-36.jpg
    Last edited by JVonD; 12-28-2016 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Added image and detailed description.

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